Dick Armey & Ron Klain discuss the 2012 race
CANDY CROWLEY, HOST “STATE OF THE UNION”: Joining me now, Ron Klain, former chief of staff for Vice President Joe Biden, and Dick Armey, former Republican House majority leader. Thank you both for being here. So we’ve had some activity in 2012. Newt Gingrich we’ll talk about a little bit later, had a not very good week. But most recently, Mitch Daniels overnight, sent a letter out. He, governor of Indiana, saying, you know what? My family can’t take it. Does that move the race in any way, shape or form? Let’s start with you, Congressman.
FORMER REP. DICK ARMEY (R-TX): Well, it is certainly a big disappointment. There are a lot of us that were talking to Mitch and trying to get him to take this race on. My wife and I spent a good afternoon with him, and we have about two million activists across the country, and frankly, we’re disappointed. Now obviously we have to start looking, and I was just saying this morning, maybe it’s time to start drafting Paul Ryan.
CROWLEY: Oh, my goodness. Well, there’s certainly a lot of concerns. We should say that you have been heavily involved in the Tea Party movement and come from sort of that section of the party. Let me ask you, when the White House looks at this sort of thing, is this now background noise, or do they look and say, boy, Mitch Daniels, I mean, he’s got a record, pretty good record in Indiana if you’re a Republican. Is this a plus or a minus for Republicans?
FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VP JOSEPH BIDEN, RON KLAIN: You know what, Candy, last time I worked at the White House in the Clinton years, in 1996 we were certain that Lamar Alexander was going to be the impossible-to-beat Republican nominee. So I think at the White House, you have to be very careful not to worry too much about the other party’s nominating process. You focus on what you can control, which is what the president’s doing, building his campaign, reconnecting with the grassroots, activating those donors, doing things he needs to do to be a good candidate in 2012. And Republican primary process is just going to work out how it works out.
CROWLEY: And which — since you brought this up, let me just interject here on the money, the money chase at this point. The president was out doing a lot of fund-raising, and the numbers are out, and the RNC has raised only about half as much money as the DNC. Does that worry you in any way, shape or form, when you look at trying to rev up the grassroots to try to change parties in the White House?
ARMEY: Actually, you know, in the grassroots movement, we have a saying — hard work beats daddy’s money. If you’ve got a good activist, energetic activist group, you’re much better off than money. And frankly, my observation over all the years I’ve been involved, is politicians waste money on campaigns even as viciously as they do in governance. So quite frankly, they’re better candidates if they have less money, because that compels them to go out and work like real people.
CROWLEY: On the other hand, you want to be the person with the most money.
KLAIN: Look, I think a lot of it depends on where the money comes from. And I think in the case of the Obama campaign in 2008 and again in 2012, it is going to be a grassroots movement. It is a grassroots movement of volunteers, of small-dollar donors, of activists, of people really connecting and moving voters.
It is going to be a tough campaign. I think the president goes into it very, very strong. He’s done a great job, but it is a very closely divided country. It was a closer campaign than people remember it being in 2008, and I think it is going to be a hard fight in 2012. And there’s no one in the White House who takes that for granted and no one in the White House who thinks this is a cakewalk.
CROWLEY: Let me ask you about Jon Huntsman. He is the new kind of flavor of the week because he’s — everybody’s heard a lot of talk about how Republicans look at the circle of folks that they know are going to get in and they’re not satisfied. Jon Huntsman is now toying with it. I noted that he’s going to have lunch with the George H.W. Bushes in Kennebunkport, Bush the father. Does that help him or hurt him in folks in your circles?
ARMEY: In our circles, having lunch with George H.W. Bush probably is a matter of little notice. Had he been having lunch with George W. Bush, who initiated TARP and some of the things that really got the blood boiling among our activists, I think it would be severely noticed.
Jon Huntsman, we don’t know him well, but we do know that he has a bit of a record of supporting things like TARP and so forth, and that’s going to always be problematic with our activists.
CROWLEY: Does it hurt him that he worked for President Obama as ambassador to China?
ARMEY: No. I would think most people would understand the point he made, when the president called upon him to serve, serve — (inaudible) –we just watched I thought a very good discussion on foreign policy, and the thing that struck me was absolutely zero politics, domestic politics in the discussion. So I think our folks are sophisticated enough to understand that you rise above politics when you are dealing on behalf of your country internationally.
CROWLEY: Let me turn you to Newt Gingrich, because he had such a flamingly awful week, having seemed to have dissed almost every Republican in the House who voted for the Ryan budget. Gingrich seemed to go, no, very bad idea, particularly the Medicare part. I want to get into a longer discussion about Medicare, but how bad a week did Newt Gingrich have?
KLAIN: Well, I think Newt Gingrich had a bad week. I think the Republican Party had a horrible week. As his campaign was definitely set back by a lot of this noise at the front end, but what you saw was there’s a litmus test now in the Republican Party. You have to be for taking apart Medicare to run for president. And if that’s going to be the enforced position of the Republican Party on their candidates in 2012, I think they’re going to have a very, very tough campaign.
CROWLEY: I want to pick up on the idea of a litmus test right after we take a quick break. And when we come back, how the Medicare fight will impact the 2012 race.
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CROWLEY: We are back with former Biden Chief of Staff Ron Klain and former Republican House Majority Leader Dick Armey.
I want to wrap up 2012 in this way. There is this great movement now, oh, there’s nobody good in the Republican race. And you, by mentioning Paul Ryan, seem to me to be among those, that you’re not happy right now with the folks who are flirting with or who have already gone into the race.
ARMEY: Well, we’ve seen some signs particularly I think Governor Pawlenty that he’s willing to step up. But we understand the fiscal crisis this nation and this nation’s government faces is so acute that somebody’s got to stand up and take on the big issues. Paul Ryan has done that. He’s taken a ton of abuse for having the courage to do so, even from within his own party.
But you know, I have said for years — on for example the subject of Medicare — it is always a debate that’s governed by Republicans that don’t dare and Democrats that don’t care. At least now, we have a Republican that dares. He needs to be applauded, encouraged, and his work needs to be appreciated as serious professional work.
CROWLEY: I want to ask a button-up question, then back to Medicare. And my button-up question is, take off your Joe Biden Democratic hat. Is President Obama beatable, as far as you’re concerned? Is there a vulnerability there that should bring in big Republican names?
KLAIN: Well, I think he’s going to win. And you know, anything could happen in politics, of course, but I think you look at his record, you look at his skill as a candidate, you look at what he’s accomplished as our president, you look at what he’s inherited, where he’s brought this country. I think President Obama’s going to be re- elected.
But I do know, as I said before, no one in the White House takes it for granted. It is going to be a hard campaign, and he’s going to have to go out there and win it.
CROWLEY: And where is the biggest vulnerability, do you think, for President Obama?
ARMEY: President Obama, we now know, I mean, he, right now he stands on this ground. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. We now know who he is. And I don’t think you can sell President Obama, knowing who he is, to this country a second time. I just don’t believe he’s…
CROWLEY: And yet we’ve seen poll after poll that shows, despite the fact that people think the economy’s on the wrong track, who do they blame? They blame George Bush. They don’t blame President Obama. His approval rating is still above 50 percent. Why is that?
KLAIN: Well as — well, as it should be. I mean, the president’s created 2 million new jobs in the past 14 months, created more jobs a month than President Bush ever had. You know, he’s turned the economy around. He inherited a horrible, horrible problem. And he’s made tremendous progress on the economy, tremendous progress on jobs, tremendous progress on foreign policy.
You know, I think that’s what voters see. It’s a tough time in the world. It’s a tough time at home. But the president’s doing the right things. And, by contrast, the Republicans are embracing novel and bizarre economic doctrines. Ben Smith had a great piece in Politico this week about…(LAUGHTER)
… the — the incoming Republican candidate Tim Pawlenty talking about taking us back to the gold standard. I mean, you know, when you compare that to what the president’s doing, I think that’s — that’s a good place for Democrats to be.
CROWLEY: Let me sum up your — one response I think you’ll have, which is the president has spent way too much money for very few jobs.
And turning to the Medicare question, and that is the Democrats are keen on making Paul Ryan’s Medicare proposal, which is to turn — to subsidize people’s, seniors’, health care and let them go out into the private market and buy their own, that Democrats are just determined to make that a campaign issue because it’s such a killer with seniors. Why — why isn’t that a campaign issue?
ARMEY: Well, with the Democrats, first of all, it’s all about let’s preserve that big-government program that keeps voting constituencies in our — in our camp. With Paul Ryan, it’s about how do we get a better health care for the American people?
Clearly, the best source of health care insurance is the private sector of the economy. And what Paul Ryan is saying, let’s let everybody at all ages be free to choose to get — acquire their insurance or continue their insurance in the private sector.
Medicare was born with coercions and prohibitions that forced people into the public health care system, Medicare, that didn’t need to be. I’m a perfect example of it. I’m perfectly capable of having my own health — health insurance, that which I’ve had all my life, except, like everybody else at the age of 65, the government — the law says I — the insurer can no longer insure me as he did when I was 64. That’s — that’s…
CROWLEY: Because you have Medicare?
ARMEY: That’s against my personal liberty, as well as loading the government up with all kinds of liabilities that they can’t afford and will never be able to fulfill.
Paul Ryan is doing more to save grandma’s health care than anybody I know right now because Medicare is going to go bust and bring the government to going bust if it’s not attended to. And he ought to be applauded.
CROWLEY: And all — all the figures do show that Medicare is killing us and that it’s just — it just exponentially grows. So it is a suggestion, at any rate, other than, you know, let’s get rid of fraud and abuse.
KLAIN: Well, first of all, I don’t think giving seniors the freedom to lose their Medicare is the freedom they want. And I think that the Ryan plan, the Ryan budget, which gets rid of Medicare, turns it into a voucher, and then gives $1 trillion in tax breaks to the wealthiest Americans is any form of courage at all. It’s just a choice to take money away from middle-class seniors and give it to the wealthy.
Now, look, Medicare has worked in this country for 50 years. The idea that now we need to get rid of it and replace it and send people off to the private sector, that’s a big mistake. And one other thing about the Ryan budget — you know, my friend Dick Armey here; he at least had the courage to touch defense spending. Paul Ryan’s budget doesn’t even touch defense spending. It’s just a series of choices, a series of hard-right choices to push the country in the wrong direction.
CROWLEY: In our final moments here, Congressman, has this proposal for Medicare become a litmus test? It totally blew up Newt Gingrich’s week when he seemed to be against it. Is it now the litmus test for I’m going — we’re going to support you or we’re not?
ARMEY: No. What blew up on Newt Gingrich was, first of all, he assailed Paul Ryan, the only standing hero that the grassroots America has. And secondly, he came back again for mandate. People don’t want the government to tell them, you must do this, especially…
CROWLEY: Litmus test or no? I gotta get a quick yes or no from you.
ARMEY: OK. No, it’s not a litmus test.
CROWLEY: OK. All right. Thank you so much. Congressman Dick Armey, Ron Klain, thank you both so much for joining us.
ARMEY: Thank you.
KLAIN: Thanks for having us.
END INTERVIEW