Egyptian Amb. to the U.S. Sameh Shoukry: President Mubarak has transferred the powers of the presidency to his vice president.
For a detailed account of all CNN’s Egypt reporting in chronological order go to CNN.com/ThisJustIn.
Egyptian Ambassador to the U.S. Sameh Shoukry spoke with CNN’s Wolf Blitzer to clarify the current roles of Egypt’s Hosni Mubarak and Omar Suleiman. This interview aired in the 5 p.m. ET hour of The Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer. A full transcript is after the jump.
FULL TRANSCRIPT: Please credit all usage of the interview to CNN’s The Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer
THIS IS A RUSH FDCH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Stand by, because joining us now is the Egyptian Ambassador to the United States.
Ambassador Shoukry, thanks very much for joining us. You can see the frustration. You can see the anger on the streets of — around Tahrir Square right now. These protesters are furious that they didn’t hear what they were led to believe they would hear, that the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, would step down. Give us your reaction.
SAMEH SHOUKRY, EGYPTIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Mr. Blitzer, I’m calling in just as a matter of objectivity, to convey to you my sense of maybe some confusion on your part in terms of what exactly the president did say.
The president did say, indicate very clearly, that he was transferring all his presidential authority to the vice president. He had done so after he had referred to the parliament the constitutional amendments upon which the political reform would proceed. So that was a point while I was following your program that I felt needed clarification.
BLITZER: Well, are you saying, Ambassador — and excuse me for interrupting — that President Mubarak is no longer the president of Egypt?
SHOUKRY: President Mubarak has transferred the powers of the presidency to his vice president, who now undertakes all authorities as president. So we can say that the president is a de jure president, and no longer– the vice president is the de facto president.
BLITZER: So Omar Suleiman, you’re saying, is now the president of Egypt and Hosni Mubarak is no longer the president of Egypt? Is that what I hear you saying, Ambassador?
SHOUKRY: This is a constitutional issue, Mr. Blitzer, which needs to be addressed from a very specific legal, constitutional perspective, not from a perspective of any form of spin. The president has transferred his authority under Article 82 of the constitution to the vice president to undertake all presidential authority that is incorporated in the constitution. So, currently, the presidential powers are all bestowed in the person of the vice president.
BLITZER: All right. So I just want to be precise. And this is the information you’re getting from the Foreign Ministry, from your government in Cairo right now?
SHOUKRY: Mr. Blitzer, I am getting this from the vice president.
BLITZER: From Omar Suleiman, that he is now the de facto president, if not the de jure president. He’s the acting president of Egypt. Is that fair to say that?
SHOUKRY: He is now undertaking all authority of the presidency under the constitution.
BLITZER: Does President Mubarak have any authority left?
SHOUKRY: President Mubarak has transferred all authority to the vice president.
BLITZER: All authority. So he has no authority left?
SHOUKRY: The only three issues that the vice president cannot make any determination on are making amendments to the constitution or dissolving parliament or firing the cabinet.
BLITZER: Who can make those decisions?
SHOUKRY: Those are decisions that would be made only by the president. In this case, those decisions are not effective, because the president has transferred all power to the vice president.
BLITZER: All right. So, just to be precise, President Mubarak still retains those powers, those three powers.
SHOUKRY: No. The constitution retains those powers, and they are not any longer bestowed with anyone.
BLITZER: Well, so who dismisses parliament if necessary?
SHOUKRY: No one.
BLITZER: No one can?
SHOUKRY: No one can.
BLITZER: So is it fair to say that President Mubarak now has no power?
SHOUKRY: That is certainly an interpretation you can make.
BLITZER: So President Mubarak now has no longer any powers. He’s no longer head of state?
SHOUKRY: He remains the de jure head of state.
BLITZER: Does he also remain commander of the military?
SHOUKRY: He has transferred all powers under the constitution to the vice president, so he has transferred all effective powers to the vice president under the constitution.
BLITZER: And can he get those powers back? Or is that irrevocable?
SHOUKRY: That’s a very technical constitutional issue that I’m unable to speak to without referring again very specifically to the legal terms of the constitution.
BLITZER: So we don’t know if he can demand those powers back from Vice President Suleiman?
SHOUKRY: I don’t think that is the issue currently, Mr. Blitzer. I think the —
BLITZER: Well, no. I want to be precise, and you’re helping us better appreciate the nuances here. Remember, we were working off a translation, an English translation. But you heard, and you see the reaction of the crowd over there in Tahrir.
SHOUKRY: I’ve heard the speech, and I have in my hand the copy of the speech.
BLITZER: So the hundreds of thousands of people who were in Tahrir Square, they all left angry, furious. They didn’t appreciate, I guess, the nuances of what you’re telling us.
SHOUKRY: I’m not in Tahrir Square, so I can’t really judge, Mr. Blitzer.
BLITZER: Will President Mubarak stay in Egypt, or is he getting ready to leave?
SHOUKRY: I have no information regarding that issue.
BLITZER: And as far as you know, he’s in Egypt right now though. Right?
SHOUKRY: Yes. As far as I know, he is in Egypt.
BLITZER: Why couldn’t he just say in simple terms what Leon Panetta, the CIA director, seemed to suggest he would say earlier in the day, or what — at least the impression we got from the president of the United States, President Obama, this was an historic moment and that he was stepping down? Why couldn’t he simply say it bluntly so that we don’t have to read in between the lines?
SHOUKRY: I really can’t answer that question. That’s a question only the president can answer. I think all I can comment on is that, apparently, this process has been undertaken with a desire to maintain the legitimacy of the constitutional process.
BLITZER: And so is the vice president, Omar Suleiman, who you now say is the de facto president, is he in charge of the military?
SHOUKRY: He would be in charge of the military, because all have — all authority has been transmitted to him.
BLITZER: All authority, even though in our official translation — in our translation — he said he was delegating power? That was from the Arabic into the English, delegating power to the vice president. He didn’t include —
SHOUKRY: What he said is that he was delegating the powers of the presidency to the vice president.
BLITZER: Yes, we didn’t have — our Arabic speakers say that their translation didn’t mean he was delegating the power, all the power, or some of the power, it was a more ambiguous delegating power to the vice president. Do you remember in Arabic precisely how he phrased it?
SHOUKRY: As I recall, he said that he has delegated the authority of the presidency to the vice president.
BLITZER: And is this just your interpretation, Mr. Ambassador? Because I know you, and I know you’re an honorable man, and you’re a good civil servant of Egypt, an excellent representative here in Washington. Is this your interpretation, or is the instructions, the guidance you have been given by your government?
SHOUKRY: I felt that I needed to clarify this issue. This issue has been clarified to me that this is the intention. I am transmitting it to you for the sake of objectivity.
BLITZER: And you’ve transmitted the same information to the U.S. government?
SHOUKRY: I certainly intend to.
BLITZER: You plan on speaking to somebody from the Obama administration, from the State Department?
SHOUKRY: There is a constant dialogue between us.
BLITZER: So let’s just recap right now, because I’m grateful to you for being precise. Who is the head of state of Egypt right now?
SHOUKRY: The head of state of Egypt is the president, who has transmitted all his powers to the vice president.
BLITZER: All right. So just to be precise, the head of state is still Hosni Mubarak?
SHOUKRY: The de jure head of state is Hosni Mubarak. The de facto head of state is Omar Suleiman.
BLITZER: And de jure means the legal head of state, the official head of state. But the de fact meaning, for all practical purposes, you’re saying Suleiman is the president.
SHOUKRY: For undertaking all decisions, responsibilities under the Constitution, it’s Vice President Omar Suleiman.
BLITZER: He’s in charge, for all practical purposes, right now?
SHOUKRY: For all presidential authority that is stipulated in the constitution.
BLITZER: And put on your hat as an observer, as an Egyptian, a proud Egyptian, someone who has watched this. And you and I have spoken several times. Put on your hat as someone who understands the mood of Egypt right now. Will this be acceptable to the protesters, that Suleiman, the vice president, in effect, becomes president?
SHOUKRY: I wouldn’t speak on anyone’s behalf. I think that remains to be seen. And whatever the demonstrators indicate will certainly be a matter of great concern to everyone. I think the demonstrators, the right to demonstrate, their right to participate in the political life of Egypt and to follow the reform process that is under way, and to form the roadmap to the future has been recognized by everyone.
BLITZER: And this roadmap, to be precise, this transitional process, your understanding is it continues until September, when the next scheduled elections are supposed to take place?
SHOUKRY: It continues in the areas that have been defined, the constitutional reforms, and the consensus that emanated from the dialogue in terms of freedom of expression, of following up on issues of corruption, and the possibility of suspending the emergency law when security conditions are more conducive so there is a number of reforms that are under way so as to guarantee a meaningful and peaceful transition of power and authority in Egypt.
BLITZER: Do you understand why Leon Panetta earlier in the day told Congress that he had been told that the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, was going to step down as early as tonight?
SHOUKRY: I have no idea. I was not in communications with Mr. Panetta.
BLITZER: I think in part because a top Egyptian military commander, an army commander, went into Tahrir Square earlier in the day and told the protesters, “All of your demands will be fully met.” They interpreted that as meaning — and they were screaming with joy, they were dancing, they were singing — that Mubarak would go away, would step down as president. And so what I hear you saying, Mr. Ambassador, is that he has stepped down as president, even though he technically, legally still may be the head of state.
SHOUKRY: I can only reiterate what I said, Mr. Blitzer. He has transferred all powers to the vice president.
BLITZER: All powers to the vice president, except the ability to dissolve parliament. Is that right?
SHOUKRY: Which now is in the hands of no one.
BLITZER: Which is in the hands of no one. What about the ability to end the state of emergency, which has been around since 1981? Who can end that?
SHOUKRY: That of course is the authority of the de facto president.
BLITZER: So, in other words, if Omar Suleiman wanted to end the state of emergency tomorrow, he could just sign a piece of paper and that would end it?
SHOUKRY: He has all the authorities under the constitution to act on any matter.
BLITZER: Do you have any indication he will end the state of emergency?
SHOUKRY: There were references in both the president’s and vice president’s speeches tonight that the reform process is under way.
BLITZER: That they were thinking about doing it, but he made no commitment, no pledge to do so. Is that right?
SHOUKRY: They made a reference to the political dialogue on the way, and among it, the issue of lifting the emergency law under the appropriate security conditions.
BLITZER: Yes. And just to be precise — because I know you’ve been very helpful to us, and I’m grateful to you, Mr. Ambassador, for doing this — if Mubarak decides tomorrow, or a month from now, or six months from now to take back the power from Suleiman, the vice president, can he?
SHOUKRY: I really do not have the information. Again, these are legalistic issues. I don’t have the article of the constitution that relates to these issues.
BLITZER: What are you bracing for tomorrow, Friday? It’s already Friday in Egypt. It’s approaching 1:00 a.m. now in Egypt. It’s a day of prayer, but all the anticipation is that after the midday prayers, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people will go out and protest.
How worried are you, Mr. Ambassador, that this could get ugly?
SHOUKRY: There is a — I think it’s been declared on several occasions at the highest level that the Egyptian people have the right to demonstrate and express their opinions under the protection of the government and the protection of the military, and I’m sure the Egyptian people will undertake their responsibilities to express their opinions in a peaceful manner, and the voice of the people has been heard and the voice of the people will continue to guide the reform process.
BLITZER: Do you feel that the U.S. administration, the Obama administration, as the foreign minister of Egypt said in an interview with PBS this week, your foreign minister, that the U.S. administration is improperly interfering in domestic Egyptian affairs?
SHOUKRY: I’m sorry. My position here as ambassador necessitates that I maintain the channels of cooperation and consultation, and this is our interest, to maintain our special and strong relationship to the United States. The U.S.-Egyptian partnership is an enduring one, one that is important to both sides.
BLITZER: Have you been asked to convey any disappointment, any displeasure or anger to the U.S. government on behalf of your government on some statements that may have been made by American officials?
SHOUKRY: No, not at all.
BLITZER: So, in your contacts with U.S. officials, you’ve been basically saying the U.S. and Egypt have a good relationship, have always had a good relationship, let’s continue that good relationship?
Is that right?
SHOUKRY: It is right. We are constantly in contact, and the dialogue is one of partnership, cooperation, and mutual understanding.
BLITZER: And what’s the message they have given you, the State Department?
SHOUKRY: It is a reiteration of the same message that the president has conveyed on several occasions, that this is an Egyptian process, and the United States is supportive of a reform process, and is supportive of a peaceful and meaningful transition of power in Egypt.
BLITZER: All right. Mr. Ambassador, if you can have a few more moments, Hala Gorani is with us as well.
SHOUKRY: I am very sorry, but I do have other obligations, Mr. Blitzer.
BLITZER: Oh, you do? OK.
Ambassador Shoukry, we appreciate your clarifications for us. They were very useful. Thank you very much. Ambassador Shoukry is the Egyptian ambassador to the United States. He helped us better appreciate the nuances here. Thank you.
SHOUKRY: Thank you.