Sen. McCain: “I’m not a starry-eyed idealist. I know the nature of war…”
CNN chief national correspondent and anchor John King interviewed Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) today about his meeting with President Obama, thoughts on Egyptian President Mubarak, and Secretary Rumsfeld’s new book. Parts of this interview will air tonight on John King, USA — 7pm ET.
MANDATORY CREDIT: JOHN KING, USA
FULL TRANSCRIPT
THIS IS A RUSH FDCH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN KING, HOST: Let’s get some insights from a leading voice on foreign policy on Capitol Hill, Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona. Senator, you say it is time for President Mubarak to go. The president himself and his regime are saying, we need time, to leave immediately would be chaos. Why are they wrong?
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Well, I think that either rightly or wrongly, President Mubarak has become a symbol of the repressive government that has not allowed the people of Egypt to express their Democratic yearnings and give them the rights that they, as human beings, deserve.
And so, if we could get a transition government in place that’s representative not only of the army, but also other Democratic elements within Egyptian society, then I think there is a good opportunity to have this violence subside.
But the longer that this transition is delayed, I think the likelihood of further escalation and violence is increased.
KING: And so, what leverage do you see the United States having at this moment? The president clearly has said that it’s time to go to get right where you want to be, to a transitional government that involves some key players but not President Mubarak himself.
Should the United States be saying, we will cut off aid if you don’t do this now? Should the United States be saying, we will suspend the planned arms sales if you don’t do this now?
MCCAIN: I think we should — I think we should wait on all of that. There’s always time for that. I think that one of our strongest influences here is the Egyptian military. We have very close military-to-military relationship with the Egyptians. They’ve been to our war colleges, our command and staff colleges, and they understand, I think, the situation rather well.
I’d rather not issue threats at this time until we’ve exhausted all other methods of persuasion. I’m not sure that that wouldn’t backfire to tell you the truth, John.
KING: President Mubarak’s team is saying the United States is meddling here, stepping in where it shouldn’t. They’re saying that publicly. We also know some of the other governments in the region who are watching this quite nervously are a bit nervous themselves that perhaps the United States, at least publicly, is playing too much of a role here.
How’s the president handling this so far in your view?
MCCAIN: I think the president is handling as well as can be expected, and I think it’s a very difficult position for the United States. No, we don’t want to interfere, this goes back to our previous subject.
But at the same time, one of the reasons why this crisis is spreading throughout the Middle East is because of the fear (ph) of advances in democratization, human rights, all of the issues that people, no matter where they live in the world, want. And the repressive regimes have then caused this outbreak throughout the Middle East.
And by the way, keep an eye on Yemen. That is one of the more volatile places in the region.
KING: I want to get to that, and let’s include it in this answer.
This is, you could argue, I think many do argue, the greatest foreign policy challenge of this presidency, the Obama Presidency. You were seated in the Oval Office with your one-time rival just yesterday. Take us a bit inside that conversation and how he was at — what questions is he asking you? How is trying to come to grips and get more insight and information about this?
MCCAIN: Well, the president obviously is being kept up to date literally minute by minute if not hour by hour. He has dispatched former Ambassador Frank Wisner to the region and gotten a good report from him. Ambassador Wisner has a good relationship with President Mubarak
Our military who have developed a good relations — excellent relations with Egyptian military are in contact. And obviously how the military behaves, the Egyptian military, will have enormous impact on the eventual outcome of this situation.
So I think, I have to say, the president, I think, is handling this situation well under the most difficult kind of circumstances. We are paying a price for historic neglect of human rights, which we have traditionally stood for throughout our history, our advocacy of it in the name of realpolitik. And I think, overtime, that doesn’t work.
And I am keenly aware of the dangers of radical Islamic influence in every one of these countries. It is a huge danger. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, in my view, is a great threat to Democracy. Anybody who advocates Sharia law certainly isn’t our kind of Democrat.
And so, this is probably the most dangerous time that in recent memory in the Middle East, due to the implications throughout the region, not to mention the implications toward — as far as Israel is concerned.
KING: And most in the Republican Party and most in the conservative movement have generally or specifically said the president’s doing about as well as he can do in a bad situation, which is what you have just said. But as you know, there are some who have a different view.
I want you to listen here to the former speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich, who says, A, the United States is losing the war on terror and, B, he thinks the president could make it worse right here.
(BEGIN CLIP)
NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We’re losing the war because there are madrassas around the planet teaching hatred. We’re losing the war because the network of terrorists is bigger, not smaller. There’s a real possibility that in a few weeks, if we’re unfortunate, Egypt will join Iran and join Lebanon and join Gaza and join the things that are happening that are extraordinarily dangerous to us.
(END CLIP)
KING: Do you see it as negatively as that? A, are we losing? And B, do you see Egypt as part of a growing Islamic Caliphate in the Middle East?
MCCAIN: I think that’s a possible scenario if we don’t handle this issue correctly and I think as long — the longer that this crisis exists, the more likely it is to be hijacked by extremists elements, whether — that history shows us that.
And I am concerned, particularly about Lebanon and the takeover by Hezbollah, and I’m worried about increasing Iranian aggressiveness, including into Iraq, and this is a very dangerous time. But, you know, I think throughout where we have stood on the right side of history, it has turned out all right in the end. But I think that the former speaker drew a scenario which is entirely possible.
Our job is to act that it doesn’t unfold that way and I don’t see how it hurts us to stand up for the things that are the very principals of our existence and we believe it applies to everyone in the world, not just those of us in the United States.
Could I just — John, could I just finally say, I’m not a starry-eyed idealist. I know the nature of war and I think I understand these issues and I understand the criticality, but for us to be on the side of governments that are oppressive and repressive in the long run can never benefit us and help us achieve our goals.
KING: It’s a fine point you make there.
Help me understand, I know you think we over-dwell on this, but you ran against President Obama in 2008, you had finally a sit-down with him at the White House. Just can you share a little bit of personal reflection on what that moment was like and the evolution of a relationship that I think it is quite fair to say turned frosty after the election, especially in the early days of the administration, and perhaps seem to be warming at least a bit now.
MCCAIN: Well, it’s not an issue of warmth or lack of warmth. I strongly disagreed with the health care reform, with the stimulus package, the spending, and those were — I felt passionately about, but I don’t think it ever interfered with my personal relationship with President Obama, which, frankly, developed here while he was in the United States Senate.
Now I think — and I say this with respect — the president has shifted in a numer — in a number of ways as a result of the November election, which I think is appropriate, and we have a common interest, common values, and I hope and I believe there are areas where we could work together for the good of the country.
KING: And so was this a perfunctory, professional president meets leading Republican senator meeting? Or was it more of a personal, let’s have a new chapter, let’s try to have a very productive personal dialogue as well as professional dialogue?
MCCAIN: I think it was pretty much along the lines — president of the United States doesn’t have a lot of time for socializing and I think it was along the line of going through some issues that there are every prospect that we could work together on under the right circumstances, and I look forward to that opportunity.
KING: Can you think of one right now where you might walk up to your leader, Mitch McConnell, and say, hey, Mitch, you know, what, we got to move from where we are here and reach common ground with the president on this?
MCCAIN: Enhanced rescission I think is something I think the president might be interested in. Once we get the borders secured, once we get them secured, immigration reform. There’s several other issues that we could work on together I believe.
KING: I want to ask you lastly, we’re going to go back through some of the Iraq War debate with the release of Secretary Rumsfeld’s book, and you and Secretary Rumsfeld — you might have a better relationship with President Obama then you do with Secretary Rumsfeld.
He talks in the book, “Known and Unknown” it’s called, that you have a, quote, “hair-trigger temper.” And what Secretary Rumsfeld says a propensity to shift his positions to appeal to the media.
MCCAIN: My only response is that I was over in Iraq to knew that — to know that we were losing and American lives were being lost. There’s nothing more important than that.
And I came back and we had literally pitched battles on the issue of a surge. And he steadfastly opposed it, he did not support such a thing, he didn’t believe we needed additional troops. That was a huge bone of contention between myself and Secretary Rumsfeld.
And fortunately, after the election of 2006, the president decided to replace him, we had the surge and we’ve achieved a significant degree of success in Iraq which we wouldn’t have under Secretary Rumsfeld. I respect Secretary Rumsfeld and his service to the country. It was nothing personal.
KING: But you make the position today that history proved John McCain right.
MCCAIN: I think so. I think it’s proved David Petraeus right.
KING: Senator John McCain, appreciate your time today, sir.
MCCAIN: Thank you.
KING: Take care.