May 4th, 2014

Sen. Johnson: “Sanctions haven’t worked”

Today on CNN’s State of the Union with Candy Crowley, Rep. Eliot Engel (D- NY), Ranking Member on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI), member of the Foreign Relations Committee, and Geoffrey Pyatt, U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, spoke to CNN about the increased violence in Ukraine, U.S. sanctions on Russia, and the kidnapped Nigerian school girls.

On the violence in Eastern Ukraine, Ambassador Pyatt said to Crowley, “There’s nothing that I heard and saw while I was in that city which would explain what transpired on Friday night.”

A transcript and video from the segment are available after the jump.

VIDEO:

Effort to find the missing Nigerian girls

TRANSCRIPT:

CROWLEY: Good morning from Washington. I’m Candy Crowley.

Ukraine remains on edge today, with increased violence in the eastern part of the country. I will get to Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt in Kiev very shortly, but, first, two people who have recently been to Ukraine, Congressman Eliot Engel, ranking Democrat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, and Senator Ron Johnson. He heads the European Affairs Subcommittee on the Senate side.

I want to start out with something that the president said. As you know, he met with German Chancellor Angela Merkel and had a presser with her and came out to warn President Putin of more sanctions in the offing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: The Russian leadership must know that, if it continues to destabilize Eastern Ukraine and disrupt this month’s presidential election, we will move quickly on additional steps, including further sanctions that will impose greater costs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CROWLEY: It seems to me — and let me start with you, Congressman — that the everything that the U.S. has done, the West has done to this point begins with, if this continues, we’re really going to do something harsher.

What is the definition of disrupting these elections in — later in May?

REP. ELIOT ENGEL (D), NEW YORK: Well, the elections are scheduled for May 25. And I think it’s very, very important that the elections go smoothly. Putin is trying everything he can do to disrupt the elections.

And I think what President Obama is trying to do is work in conjunction with our European allies. They are much more reluctant to do anything against Russia because they rely on Russia for their energy needs.

CROWLEY: They’re tied with…

(CROSSTALK)

CROWLEY: … more than we are, right.

But the question is, I think if you look at what’s going on in Ukraine in the eastern part right now, you can pretty much predict that elections there are going to be a little tough.

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R), WISCONSIN: Well, it really is spinning out of control.

And, you know, the sad fact is, sanctions haven’t worked. All the devaluation of currency, the devaluation of the stock market occurred before the sanctions were ever put in place. Basically, that all happened right after the Russian parliament authorized use of force. And that’s when all that devaluation occurs.

So, all the sanctions and the threats of sanctions really have had very little effect. And that’s unfortunate. Vladimir Putin is only going to respond to action, strength and resolve. He’s not going to respond to words. And that’s certainly what we hear when we go over to Ukraine.

CROWLEY: But action is limited. When Americans hear action, they think, oh, we’re going to send troops or do something, which is clearly off the table and is not going to happen.

Would you agree that the sanctions thus far have failed to move Putin?

ENGEL: I would say that the sanctions so far have graduated, have been gradual, and I think they will continue to be gradual.

CROWLEY: Have they affected Putin’s behavior?

ENGEL: Well, I think they have affected his behavior. I mean, he has all these troops poised at the Ukrainian border. He hasn’t crossed the border yet.

I have to think that part of his calculation is that, if he does that, all bets are off and sanctions would kick in. Look, I’m for sanctions. I think it’s sanctions that brought Iran to its knees, because it hurt their economy, and they’re negotiating with us now. And I think Putin has to understand that, if he continues this nonsense, sanctions will bring his economy to its knees.

His economy right now is floundering. He really cannot afford to be so — too wise about this.

CROWLEY: But, probably, I think the point that some Republicans are making that want stiffer sanctions now and in fact more — some weaponry to go to the Ukrainian government, is that perhaps the Russian economy has been hurt, and there are — there are signs that has happened, but it hasn’t affected Putin.

So sanctions that hurt Russia aren’t much good if they don’t move Putin.

ENGEL: Well, I think, again, none of us know really what’s in Putin’s calculation. I agree. We do need sanctions. I think we do need to consider giving military aid to Ukraine.

We need to let Putin understand that any disruption — and I think Merkel and Obama said that — any disruption of the May 25 elections would bring a response from us.

CROWLEY: What is your definition of disruption in this case? I want to ask both of you.

Senator, what’s your…

JOHNSON: We’re seeing it right now.

(CROSSTALK)

CROWLEY: As far as elections are concerned.

JOHNSON: We’re seeing it right now. I mean, we are seeing, you know, these Russian sympathizers, and I would say really Russian agents in many respects, taking over administration buildings, fomenting unrest. And now we’re really seeing this erupt into real violence. People are dying. And that’s exactly what Vladimir Putin wants.

He wants to destabilize not only Ukraine, but he’s been really undermining those breakaway republics for years, because he doesn’t want to see successful democracy on his borders, because that destabilizes Russia, or certainly threatens his power.

And that came — that’s what this is all about. It makes no economic, rational sense for Putin to be doing what he’s doing. He’s only doing it to consolidate his own power. And we have to recognize that. So, nobody is talking about combat boots on the ground, but he’s amassing tens of thousands of troops. We’re sending a couple hundred in.

And I think what we really need to strengthen NATO.

CROWLEY: NATO, right.

JOHNSON: Yes. We need to show some training exercises. And we really should some provide defensive weaponry, anti-tank weapons, to Ukraine.

CROWLEY: Right. And I wanted to ask you about that, because this is the first time I have heard you — perhaps you have said it before, but that you do think we ought to consider giving actual lethal weapons to the Ukrainian government, because, in essence, people who argue for this say, look, we’re not going to go in and help them. They should at least have a little more wherewithal.

Everyone understands that they can’t beat the Russian army, but, nonetheless, when you’re trying to kind of crush this pro-Russia uprising, maybe some lethal weapons would help Ukraine at this point.

ENGEL: Well, I think it would, but I think that that’s not it.

Look, our — our NATO allies, the ones who were the former Soviet Bloc countries and former Eastern Bloc countries, they’re scared to death. They think that, if Putin gets away with this, they may be next.

We have in NATO Article 5, which says an attack on one NATO member is an attack on all. NATO — the equation of NATO since the fall of the Soviet Union has really been that Russia would be cooperative. If Russia is now going to be an adversary, the whole calculus of NATO needs to change.

And, by the way, the U.S. provides most of the military aid to NATO. The countries are supposed to do 2 percent of their economy for the military if they’re NATO members, and they haven’t. Only three or four countries have. So, it really means that we’re going to have to work in conjunction with NATO, because, if we don’t, then the NATO alliance is dead. (CROSSTALK)

CROWLEY: Let me ask you just to stand by with me, because do we have Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt on the phone. And I want to see.

Mr. Ambassador, thanks for joining us.

I wanted to ask you first, what is your understanding right now of the situation in Eastern Ukraine?

GEOFFREY PYATT, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Well, Candy, right now, I mean, Ukraine is a country in mourning.

Prime Minister Yatsenyuk was in Odessa today. He made the point that violence there on Friday was a tragedy not just for the city of Odessa, but for the whole country. And I would say, having spent some time in Odessa just three weeks ago and spoken with a broad range of political and civil society leaders, there’s nothing that I heard and saw while I was in that city which would explain what transpired on Friday night.

And I think it suggests that somebody wanted this violence to explode the way it did. And I think, at this point, the whole country is trying to figure out what happened, how to pull together, and how to make sure that those who are trying to divide the country will not be successful.

CROWLEY: Well, Mr. Ambassador, it’s probably no time to beat around the bush. Do you believe that Russia and President Putin are behind what turned out to be, I believe, the bloodiest day thus far in this back-and-forth?

PYATT: Well, we certainly believe that Russia is exercising influence across Eastern Ukraine.

We don’t have evidence of the Russian role in what — the tragedy that transpired on Friday. Prime Minister Yatsenyuk used some very strong words today, talking about the role that he believes that Russia played.

And this is something that we hope an impartial and systematic investigation will be able to get to the bottom of very quickly.

CROWLEY: And when you’re talking about the tragedy that happened Friday, you mean when pro-Russian demonstrators were pushed into, back into the government building they were occupying, apparently by pro- Ukrainian protesters, and then the building was set on fire, and more than 40 people died. That’s what you’re talking about, correct?

PYATT: That — partially, yes, but also the fact that you had pro-unity demonstrators who were targeted by pro-Russia activists, some of whom appeared to have weapons, guns.

And, most disturbingly, there seems to be evidence in social media that some of the police in Odessa may have been complicit in allowing the violence to explode out of control way it did. That’s something which Prime Minister Yatsenyuk spoke to today. And I see that he’s already brought some major changes in the security leadership there in Odessa, which I think reflects the deep concern about the role that the security establishment played in Friday’s violence.

CROWLEY: Mr. Ambassador, the ongoing fear here is that President Putin, with these clashes and with the movement of Ukrainian forces trying to quell some of this violence, he now has the excuse he needs to move in. Is that the consensus there?

PYATT: Well, not at all.

We hope that Russia will play a constructive role. It’s important to remember the other — the more hopeful event that happened over this long — over this long May Day weekend was the release of the detained OSCE diplomatic military observers in Slavyansk.

Russia played a decisive role in accomplishing that. It demonstrates that Russia has influence and can play a constructive role when it wishes to do so. And we hope that that’s very much the approach that they will take in the days ahead.

But this is an extremely delicate situation, and certainly the extraordinary violence in Odessa on Friday has made the situation more fraught.

CROWLEY: All right.

And, finally, Mr. Ambassador, this looks like a civil war. It certainly sounds like a civil war. Is there any reason to believe that that’s not what we’re watching unfold?

PYATT: No, I think — I don’t see that yet, Candy.

What I see is a society which is facing extraordinary — extraordinary threats and division, but where the dominant opinion in every public opinion survey from every Ukrainian I talk to is, how can we get our country to pull together again?

Clearly, there are forces that are trying to deepen division. And, sadly, some of those forces seem to be coming from outside the country, from Russia. But the dominant mood in the country is, how do we end this violence and how do we pull the country together again?

CROWLEY: Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt, U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, thanks so much for your time today.

PYATT: No, good talking to you.

CROWLEY: Thanks.

So, back to you all.

You see these pictures. You heard the ambassador. What does the U.S. do next? I feel like there are not a lot of arrows in this quiver. Right?

JOHNSON: Well, let me first say that we have got an excellent ambassador in Ambassador Pyatt, doing a really good job, very dedicated.

One thing we have to understand is how effective Russia has been in terms of propaganda war. When we were there, I was asking, what are they — what are they lying to Ukrainians about? They’re telling them that they’re going to — that Kiev is going to be — Kiev is going to be spending — or sending death squads to pull people out of their homes.

They say they’re going to be forced out of their Russian orthodox, Ukrainian orthodox faith and into Catholicism.

CROWLEY: Propaganda war.

JOHNSON: So, the propaganda is incredibly effective. We need to counter that in a far more robust fashion, because we have pretty well stopped our efforts the providing information.

(CROSSTALK)

ENGEL: The most — the most important thing — I met with Prime Minister Yatsenyuk when I was there.

The most important thing that they’re looking for is, those elections on May 25 have to happen, and they have to happen so that the Ukrainian people can exercise their free will. It is so important. Putin’s role, obviously, or his game is to try to disrupt them and then say that they’re irrelevant, and that they’re therefore invalid.

But we really cannot let him — let him do that. And, again, Putin has to understand that sanctions will follow, tough sanctions on their banking sector, on their mining sector, on their financial sector will follow, just the way we did it for Iran, if Putin doesn’t stop his nonsense.

CROWLEY: To both of you, a final question.

If Putin decided tonight to roll those tanks across the border from Russia into Eastern Ukraine, what stops him?

JOHNSON: Nothing will stop him. That’s — this is hindsight, but when Prime Minister Yatsenyuk was here just asking for pretty reasonable request of some small arms and ammunition, as a sign, as a sign of strength and resolve to support for Ukrainians, now, unfortunately, we didn’t provide that.

And, again, nobody can predict exactly what would have happened, but I think it’s that type of weakness that has given Vladimir Putin the — the — certainly the signal that he can continue to do these things with impunity. We have got to change the calculus.

ENGEL: What stops him is, he understands that, if he were to do that, tough sanctions would follow, both from Europe and from the United States.

I think that President Obama is starting slowly so we can be in conjunction with our European allies. But he has said there will be tough sanctions if Putin continues this nonsense.

CROWLEY: I want to quick ask you about a question that’s out there in Nigeria, where, in mid-April, about 270-something, I think, Nigerian schoolgirls, teenagers were kidnapped by a terrorist group that is opposed to Western education, who think Western education is evil.

There was an interesting article today, an op-ed by Nicholas Kristof in “The New York Times,” in which, in part, he said: “While there has been a major international search for the missing people on Malaysian Flight MH370, there’s been no meaningful search for the even greater number of missing schoolgirls.”

We have heard Secretary Kerry say this is terrible. The Nigerian government is apparently not doing much to help find these young women. We’re told they’re being sold to be wives of some of these terrorists.

It does seem — and — and Kristof spoke to the father of one of these girls, said, we need the U.N., we need the U.S. to do something. Is there something the U.S. can do?

JOHNSON: Well, one thing, I believe the U.S. who has been way too silent on the brutality, the lack of human rights in the Muslim world for women.

And I think that’s one of the roles I think the Senate Foreign Relations Committee can play there, is hold hearings, highlight that, so that Americans, so the world sees this type of abuse. So it really is — it’s about communications. It’s about awareness.

ENGEL: One thing that’s true, the whole world looks to the United States, whether it’s in Africa, whether it’s in Ukraine, whether it’s in Asia. There’s no substitute for the United States.

And we — my belief is that we need to be active and engaged. It doesn’t mean boots on the ground. But there’s so much that we can do.

CROWLEY: We could gather an international force, saying, find these girls. It’s 270 teenage girls.

JOHNSON: Yes, America has to lead. And that’s what’s missing now. We simply aren’t taking that leadership position across the world. And that makes the world a very — much more dangerous place.

ENGEL: Well, I think we are taking a leadership position, but we do have allies. We have to work with them. I think we’re doing it. And I think Putin understands that.

CROWLEY: Congressman Eliot Engel, Senator Ron Johnson, thank you both for coming by today. I appreciate it.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

ENGEL: Thank you.

CROWLEY: April was the strongest month for job growth in two years, but wages are stagnant, and the first-quarter growth was almost zero. Is the glass half-full or half-empty, and that’s next.

### END ###