Evidence: media coverage favors gay rights
Today on CNN’s Reliable Sources hosted by Brian Stelter, politics & culture columnist at Salon, Thomas Frank, and editor-at-large of Breitbart.com, Ben Shapiro, discussed the media’s role in the watershed moment for gay rights this week in Arizona and Texas.
A transcript of the discussion is available after the jump.
TRANSCRIPT:
STELTER: But first, a statement and a question. We’ve seen a dramatic change in America’s attitudes towards gay rights in the last few years. Here’s the question, how much has the media influenced that change?
Let’s back up a moment and look at what happened just this week, another landmark week for gay rights. The governor of Arizona vetoed a bill that would have given businesses the legal grounds to deny services to gay people. In Texas, a federal judge struck down that state’s ban on gay marriage and in Kentucky, a district judge said the state must recognize gay marriages that were performed in states where they are legal.
Of course, these battles all across the country are far from over. Look at how much has changed. Republicans Mitt Romney, John McCain and even some FOX News stars, all spoke out against the Arizona bill.
So, how much of a role did we in the media (AUDIO GAP)?
Look at this research conducted by the Pew Research Center last summer around the gay marriage debate. It found that stories emphasizing support for gay marriage were five times as common as stories emphasizing opposition.
So, is the media coverage of this issue shaping America’s changing attitudes? Or is it merely reflecting those changes that are happening anyway.
Joining me to hash this out is Ben Shapiro, a conservative columnist and editor at large for Breitbart.com, and Thomas Frank, the author of “What’s the Matter with Kansas”, and brand new columnist for the liberal Web site, Salon.com.
Thank you both for joining me.
THOMAS FRANK, AUTHOR, “WHAT’S THE MATTER WITH KANSAS”: Sure thing.
BEN SHAPIRO, BREITBART.COM: Thanks so much.
STELTER: Thomas, this cuts to the heart of what some people complained about for decades, the idea that media is biased in favor of liberals? Is that the case here? And what else, do you think, accounts for the changing attitudes we’ve seen in all of the polling in this country in recent years?
FRANK: Well, you know, I’ve always been a big doubter of the liberal bias critique, although maybe this issue is different. But if you go back and look at the long history of the bias critique goes back to — we know when it started, Spiro Agnew in 1969 basically invented this as a way of getting back at the news media of the day that was, you know, that he thought was opposing the Vietnam war and that sort of thing. And it’s, you know, it’s gone on and on over the years and the hilarious thing is that the media is objectively much less liberal today than it was then after years and years of this stuff.
But, you know, this is a very interesting question. Does the media reflect or does it cause, you know? And people debate this all the time in sociology and history, all sorts of other disciplines. I used to argue about it myself.
STELTER: Ben, where do you stand on this? Do you feel that the press either responsibly or irresponsibly encourages acceptance of gay marriage and laws that encourage gay rights?
SHAPIRO: As far as the actual bias of media, whether it’s reflective, or whether it’s generative, the fact it reflects L.A. and it reflects New York and it generates — it generates feeling elsewhere. I mean, people tend to reflect the situations in which they live. The media is largely based in coastal large cities, liberal cities, and therefore, their bias is reflective of those cities while changing the rest of the country.
STELTER: Is the press in this case an enemy of religious freedom then? We saw so much criticism of this bill from reporters and from commentators and from corporate interests?
SHAPIRO: Absolutely. Absolutely an opponent to religious freedom. The press believes that essentially religious individuals should be forced to abide by whatever the press’s standards of morality are and the press is happy to see government enforced those standards of morality.
You’ve seen people like Tony Kornheiser on ESPN suggest this law would force people gays in the state of Arizona to wear yellow stars, or that gays and lesbians in the state of Arizona wouldn’t be able to attend NFL football games. I mean, this kind of nonsense has nothing to do with the law as written and it’s specifically designated to create the perception the American people are a bunch of pitchforks and torch-wielding religious bigots who are looking to crowbar gay people in the streets.
STELTER: It doesn’t sound like the America I know. But hyperbole is common in the press, is it not? I mean, we hear hyperbole everyday.
FRANK: Hell, I deal in that stuff. That’s what I do, man. Can I just —
SHAPIRO: Well, there’s commentary and then there’s the news media. And those are two different things.
FRANK: That’s right. Can I take a step back here? I’m from Kansas and my — the thing that got me writing “What’s the Matter with Kansas”, in fact, when they had the debate over the theory of Evolution in the state of Kansas and the media all over the world went absolutely berserk, right, making fun of Kansas. It’s a replay of the monkey trial down in Tennessee, you know, back in the 1920s.
It was a classic media set piece and everybody was laughing at Kansas and then, you know, the local conservatives struck back in saying, yes, they didn’t describe what we were doing precisely to the letter. They didn’t get it exactly right.
You know, they had a point. But in the grand scheme of things, the media had that story right. I think they have this one right as well.
SHAPIRO: Sorry. Thomas admitted the meeting is biased and skews the story, but in general they have the story right. So, please explain how a law that doesn’t mention homosexuality is specifically about allowing restaurants to now have a right that trumps federal law, which this clearly does not and how this law is going to allow restaurants to randomly throw gay people out of their businesses in a way they weren’t able to before in the state of Arizona?
Please explain that to me and how that’s accurate.
FRANK: It’s not a law. It got vetoed. I don’t know if you heard about this.
SHAPIRO: A bill, correct.
FRANK: Yes. So I didn’t read that one but I did read the bill in Kansas, you know. The actual law itself, the proposal itself, the bill that got vetoed the other day and they had one in Kansas and they had them in a bunch of other states, that’s, you know, the really interesting thing. Where did this come from? Who — you know, who developed it? That sort of thing.
You know, it was sort of my opinion is that it was all sort of ginned up as a kind of culture war set piece to rally the troops, get something for people to feel persecuted about, get the voters worked up about the onslaught of, you know, liberals and the trial lawyers and the outside judges and that kind of thing. And then falling back on liberal bias is salvage a game that’s been lost basically in my opinion.
STELTER: Ben, when you come on television, when you write columns, do you feel that you are being persecuted or do you feel you are being, you know, put in an uncomfortable position because everybody else seems to believe the opposite of what you believe?
SHAPIRO: Listen, I’m happy to be in liberal areas. I spent my life in Los Angeles and Cambridge, Massachusetts. I like being in liberal areas. I like duking it out.
But there’s no question that the media is bias to the left and there’s also no question that the media is very much in favor of fascistic government that gets to control what religious people do with their private businesses.
I mean, and do I feel persecuted in that way? Well, let’s see. If the government decides that it can tell me to violate my own religious presets because the government has a greater good and that it is attempting to pursue without evidence that greater good is actually a necessity, I mean, anybody who compares the plight of 2014 gays to 1960s blacks is absurd.
Then, certainly, I feel prosecuted. But that’s as a religious citizen, not as a commentator. Thank God we still have freedom of speech. And listen, I’m happy for you to be on the air, for you to be on the air Thomas. I just think there are more people like you than there are people like me.
FRANK: Awesome.
STELTER: You mean in the press?
FRANK: That would be the craziest thing in the world. I’m always the odd man out. I mean, if you know the day that —
SHAPIRO: Yes, right —
FRANK: I shouldn’t go down this road but I have spent my entire life having extremely unpopular views, unpopular opinions, and I agree, thank God for the freedom of the press. I mean, this is, you know, that’s — it’s a wonderful thing.
SHAPIRO: I’m actually not even, you know, on the side that you probably think I’m on but as far as being on the defense, being from the right on a left network like CNN, sure, of course, I’m on the defensive, and I go in with game planning for it. I mean, it’s not the same thing as going on FOX News which, obviously, leans to the right. I mean —
STELTER: Tell me about how you plan for it? I’m curious. We’re on the most meta show on CNN. How do you plan for it?
(LAUGHTER)
SHAPIRO: Well, what I do is I assume that I’m going to get a certain set of questions from folks like you, Brian, I generally do get, and with all the veiled implications there in. Don’t you feel persecuted going on a leftist network? The implication, of course, being that I see myself as a victim. Don’t you feel when you come on a leftist network and you’re being attacked that maybe it’s because, you know, you’re just a little intolerant?
These are usually the way these conversations go. So, you know, I’m glad, Brian, that you haven’t done all of those things. You’ve done some of them. But, you know, of course, when I go in I would be foolish not to think about the questions I’m going to be asked before doing so.
STELTER: And, of course, I’ve got to say here, CNN does strive to be nonpartisan. I understand you feel it doesn’t succeed at that all the time, but at least it tries.
Ben Shapiro and Thomas Frank, thank you both for joining me for this one.
FRANK: Yes, sure thing.
SHAPIRO: Thanks so much.